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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy

Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject:

Yaru, give me some numbers here. Based on existing figures, how much money can you make at best case scenario on normal grade kashaga or sshliss skin tailoring, per hour?
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy

Tylen
Alpha Antifemale

Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject:

HR-Trevor wrote:

Oh, we could do it. People just wouldn't like it.

C'mon, I double dog dare you.
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]

Dzynna
Shadow Master

Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Somewhere in the wilds

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject:

soundless wrote:

according to Dzynna, who has maxed foraging as a tracker, it takes her 160 seconds to fill up a bundle. if the commod itself is a low-selling one (for example, one that goes for 10.0), that's still 5k in 3 minutes.

Just commenting on the foraging stuff because my name was used, not because I know anything about how much you are making off of crafting.

With 200 (240) ecology and 100 (104) perception (this is discounting any additional bonuses such as potions, spellsongs, spells, psionics, and fire, which can boost both ecology and perception both by a LOT.

With NO failed attempts (these are 10 RT each one) it is approximately 150 RT for a full bundle. Sometimes I manage a full bundle without any, and sometimes I get 20 of them during foraging a bundle. Most of the time it is somewhere in between. So I'd say 160RT is probably a little on the low side, average-wise. I'm going to say the average is probably more like 200RT. Considering how quickly I can take down an at-level creature (1-2 shots max), and that I can open my own boxes, AND skin my skinnable kills, I can make just as much, if not more, hunting. It just requires more effort...and we all know I'm a lazy Tracker. Wink

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Dzynna Zol
-------------------------------------
The Retreat
--------------------------------------

soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!

Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:38 am Post subject:

Dzynna wrote:

Considering how quickly I can take down an at-level creature (1-2 shots max), and that I can open my own boxes, AND skin my skinnable kills, I can make just as much, if not more, hunting. It just requires more effort...and we all know I'm a lazy Tracker. Wink

except that's my wonderful irony, too. i can make a ton more money hunting, but i really really just want to play my character as an artisan. yet the more i see it i should just go hunt like everyone else.

Trevor wrote:

Yaru, give me some numbers here. Based on existing figures, how much money can you make at best case scenario on normal grade kashaga or sshliss skin tailoring, per hour?

Sure thing, boss. Here's how it worked for me with sshliss in the past. Tygerwulf didn't head off there yet to deliver me any goods and the only skins i have stored are some ruga.

It takes from 1 1/2 to 2 minutes to tailor a scroll case. so let's say every scroll case takes 1 minute 45 seconds. based on that...

Code:

Scroll cases made per hour: ~34
Scroll case price per sshliss skin (pre change): $825
Total money made: $28050
Scroll case price per kashaga pelt (pre change): $975
Total money made: $33150
Scroll case price per kashaga pelt (post change): $675
Total money made: $22950

Now, it takes me around 15 seconds to kill/skin a sshliss or kashaga (heck, it takes that for getok, too, save the fact that i can't skin them), and let's say that in an hour i spend 7.5 minutes killing and skinning 30 critters and the rest tailoring (it takes around 52.5 minutes to make 30 scroll cases). so in an hour, i'm really currently making $20,250 after discounting time to hunt enough to tailor for the rest of the hour, and even then that's if there is a constant stream of critters, i don't have to reload (which adds more time), and i don't have to take the time to actually travel or anything.

so i make $20,250 an hour on kashaga pelts being made into scroll cases.

now, standing by the fact that it takes me 10 seconds to kill pretty much anything (even brinebone scourges, which i only don't fight because they like landing awesome strikes due to the fact that i lie down and they have very sharp weapons and i'm at melee while in a swimming RT...), i'm going to kill 15 modan kuchos, which require one less skill to profit off of than tailoring scroll cases (kuchos have boxes, which requires security, while kashaga scroll case tailoring takes tailoring and skinning. both obviously need some combat offensive/defensive skill).

why 15 kucho? because, if it takes 10 seconds per kill, i would kill 45 kucho in the 7.5 minutes it takes me to just get the pelts to process into scroll cases. i believe that 15 kucho kills will give me a fair enough range of the money i'd make if i just killed things, instead of killed/skinned/and processed things, which takes notably more time.

here comes the results:

Code:

kucho 1: casket (some broken glass, a black diamond, and a diamond)
kucho 2: case (a slab of pink eorit stone, a slab of pink eorit stone, and an imfel seed)
kucho 3: trunk (some cash, some cash, and a canary diamond)
kucho 4: nothing
kucho 5: $58 and a vessel (a used needle and a silver nugget)
kucho 6: nothing
kucho 7: on/off switch
kucho 8: box (a copper nugget, an emerald, a small reflector, and a fire amber)
kucho 9: casket (see some cash and a diamond)
kucho 10: $60 and a cassion (a weak receiver and a large white fishing cooler)
kucho 11: $60 and a black diamond
kucho 12: $56 and dermagel
kucho 13: $58 and diamond
kucho 14: silver nugget
kucho 15: nothing

total cash made: $8132

to be fair, opening stuff takes time. normally a minute. so that's seven more minutes added to this. i'm also selling as i get them, so the ticker may throw those prices off (i know the eorit sold for amazingly low... around $450ish each). so in around 15 minutes of hunting, I made $8132. if i hunted/opened for a full hour, i'd expect making around $32,000. as far as i know, none of the boxes had Rs, either, so if those are added to the mix the price may have went up.

now, let's take weaving and tailoring gowns with jabo eyelets. it takes around 1 minute to warp a loom, 4 minutes to weave a skein and 1 minute 45 seconds to tailor a gown. so that's 6 minutes 45 seconds per gown. so that's 9 gowns per hour. they sell for $1,125. that means $10,125 in an hour. take away the $900 for buying the skeins ($100 each), and that is a $9,225 profit.

last but not least, there are kailet idols, which take 7 minutes to make and always sell for $1322. so that's almost 9 per minute and $11,898 total. take away the $1260 for kailet blocks ($180 each), and that is a $10,638 profit.

so in an hour i can (from best to worst)...

Code:

hunt kucho and open boxes, resulting in ~$32,000

OR

hunt kashaga and make scroll cases, resulting in ~$20,250

OR

make kailet idols, resulting in $10,638

OR

make jabo eyelet sheets and make gowns, resulting in $9,925

now, to be fair, i'd make more on scroll cases if i could either hunt getok or if i could hunt something above kashaga and below getok that was closer to my level (and skinnable with 200), but right now if i was a pure artisan non-combat so and so, i'd make 1/3rd less an hour than someone who can hunt.

while that may be mostly because there are higher level critters to skin/search for boxes than there are skeins and woods, i'm not exactly sure why something can't be done to change that or at least give crafters a leg up until harder things are available. it isn't like i hunt kashaga because they're easy for me, but because they're all a non tracker with 200 skinning can skin. i shouldn't be pretty much trapped in hunting kashaga for pelts while also being punished for underhunting. i'd hunt harder things if i could, since it tends to be the norm that hunting harder things does give a better per hour gain (example: making a kailet idol gives a better per hour profit than making gaoun idols, which only gives $300 profit per hour i believe). and, let's admit it, i'm not looking for easy things, but the best profit per hour things. the craft systems are nowhere close the profit per hour of combat hunting, and the closest (making scroll cases) is being downtweaked before better options for skinning targets are available.

i really think it's unfair that i make 1/3rd less than a hunter. even if crafting is safer than hunting. that's just amazingly skewed to me.

i'm hoping this is the kind of data you were looking for, bossman.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

Tylen
Alpha Antifemale

Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:25 am Post subject:

Nerfs always precede improvements. One would think you'd be used to that by now.
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]

soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!

Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:54 am Post subject:

Tylen wrote:

Nerfs always precede improvements. One would think you'd be used to that by now.

i think it would be insulting to trevor and mickey to have the expectation that they do things backwards just to screw players over.

that, and the way the treasure rates were rolled in was done in a rather fair way, so it isn't like i've seen any changes that were backwards save this one.

i've also never had any issues with any tweaks mickey (and whatever other GMs involved) has ever done for artisans. save this one, i think he's done nothing but things that really were for the benefit or artisans. me being pissed over one change isn't going to toss me into a mindset that says all GMs are out to screw me in every aspect. was i screwed here? sure. but it isn't like it's a daily norm.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

Tylen
Alpha Antifemale

Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:33 am Post subject:

I'm not saying it's done to deliberately screw anyone. It's just one of those Ways Things Are.

Recent example (note the last line):

Code:

[08.16.05] Body decay will now actually damage (decay) the body once it has reached the autolysis and putrefaction stage.

This stage isn't reached until the last 17 minutes and the damage is slight, yet builds with each pulse, just as natural decay does. Initially undamaged body parts will not reach the'bleeding' stage until the final 11 minutes.

This means the corpse will require healing and therefore might take longer to revive.

As stated above, certain professions will soon be able to extend the life of a corpse, provided it has not reached the putrefaction stage yet.

This wasn't even one of those game-balance-threatening-must-be-done-now changes that couldn't wait.
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]

HR-Faith
OCD Grammar Perfectionist

Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Japan

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:50 am Post subject:

Tylen wrote:

I'm not saying it's done to deliberately screw anyone. It's just one of those Ways Things Are.

Recent example (note the last line):

Code:

This wasn't even one of those game-balance-threatening-must-be-done-now changes that couldn't wait.

1. I'm unaware of exactly what the last line has to do with 'screwing the player base over', nor was any of that intended to screw anyone over. It was intended to make things more balanced.
2. Death mechanics ARE currently unbalanced. IG death is currently (even AFTER the modifications I've made) a joke. More changes WILL happen and NOT to screw anyone over, but to make it where death isn't a joke anymore.
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Counselor Faith Tempest
Medic Guru
hr-faith@haelrahv.com

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." -- Bilbo Baggins --

soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!

Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:53 am Post subject:

i know it doesn't make any sense being right here, though.

tylen has a habit of trying to incite shit on the boards lately, and that's great and surely a good way to make a thread get ignored, but i'd love trevor to look over my notes that i posted without all this crap between.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy

Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:35 am Post subject:

A few notes I can post immediately:

- Foraging is slightly more lucrative than intended.
- Woodworking is less lucrative than intended.
- Tailoring sounds like it might be a bit low also.
- Hunting treasure is overdue for an overhaul.

However, you're still comparing combat loot to non combat systems and as I've said, combat is intended to be more lucrative. The fact it is more rewarding is no mistake. Is it perfect? No. Is death as risky as it should be to balance this risk? No. But we've been working on these things.

Ironically, Aesal's post fit in perfectly. Death mechanic changes were well overdue and this is one reason why, the above mentioned combat rewards.

I'd also like to point out, however, that "upcoming changes to death mechanics" were posted well in advance before they were even touched. It wasn't a snap change put in because the game direly needed it, nor was it intended to be.

And, yes, "nerfs" do tend to precede "improvements". It's far better for us to aim low and have low payouts than to aim high and then have to gut payouts.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy

soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!

Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:56 am Post subject:

HR-Trevor wrote:

And, yes, "nerfs" do tend to precede "improvements". It's far better for us to aim low and have low payouts than to aim high and then have to gut payouts.

i just really wish those changes would be announced, though. this time (and the last time) values on tailored products made with skins/hides/etc happened, there was no news announcement or anything. heck, last time i don't even think a GM went out and said there was something that changed. everyone swore nothing was touched.

anyway, i hope price stuff gets fixed somehow so crafting is at least somewhat reasonable when it comes to being on scale with hunting. with the exception of fishing (and, to a much lesser extent, excavating), combat-based players already have near full claim to rares, ultrarares, and so on. i don't see why they should then also have a huge dominance over just money in general, as well.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

Kit
Cybertech Extraordinaire~

Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 3071
Location: Currently cyberwiring your mind

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:16 am Post subject:

soundless wrote:

why 15 kucho? because, if it takes 10 seconds per kill, i would kill 45 kucho in the 7.5 minutes it takes me to just get the pelts to process into scroll cases.

... If Kuchos swarmed, yes, these numbers would be accurate. But they don't. I can kill a kucho in 10 seconds, too...but there's 2-3 minute down time when trying to find another.

Yes, we know you want to do artisan things to make money. I want to do tech things to make money... And we both CAN, artisans more than techs. But hunting is always gonna be the most profitable.

You don't gotta be rich, too. If you wanna be, suck it up and hunt like the rest of us. If you just want to be an artisan, then just come to grips with the fact that you'll never make as much as a hunter.
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"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -- Adam Savage

AIM: KitMurphyHR
Email: yojibalinese@hotmail.com
Technician Database: http://tech.haelrahv.net/

soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!

Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:

Kit wrote:

... If Kuchos swarmed, yes, these numbers would be accurate. But they don't. I can kill a kucho in 10 seconds, too...but there's 2-3 minute down time when trying to find another.

then you just have major crappy luck, then. i was able to hunt those 15 guys and i only paused because i forgot ammo and had to reload around number 8. when i got back, after 30 seconds the area was swarming again.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.

Tylen
Alpha Antifemale

Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject:

It sounds like you didn't understand the first line of my post, where I said things like that are not necessarily done to screw over people. The recent change to death mechanics was a good example of this since

It didn't hurt anyone considering most people aren't dead longer than maybe 10 minutes, and
It could easily have waited until the corresponding remedy was put in.

My point with regards to this thread is it'll be fixed when it's fixed (if it needs fixing).

And of course now that it's been made abundantly clear with NUMBERS how patently UNFAIR it is that HIGH level ARTISANS can't make money HAND over FIST through crafting (even though they really really WANT to), we can forget this thread ever happened and move on with our scripting/lives.
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]

Kit
Cybertech Extraordinaire~

Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 3071
Location: Currently cyberwiring your mind

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:

soundless wrote:

Kit wrote:

... If Kuchos swarmed, yes, these numbers would be accurate. But they don't. I can kill a kucho in 10 seconds, too...but there's 2-3 minute down time when trying to find another.

Well, seems to me you have a quick and easy way to make loads of cash in between tailoring sessions.
_________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -- Adam Savage

AIM: KitMurphyHR
Email: yojibalinese@hotmail.com
Technician Database: http://tech.haelrahv.net/

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