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half teasing
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HR-Beau
The Good Fairy


Joined: 02 Nov 2002
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:09 am    Post subject:
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To put things in an IC perspective....reality in a game, and reality in well...real life are NOT the same. Because Haelrahv is a game we quite often suspend the real world in order to make things fit, as Trevor has recently pointed out concerning weaponry adjustments. Likewise, in real life I could dabble in any one of numerous professions, and quite likely be good at all of them. But this is Haelrahv. This is a game. To make professions work there are going to be things that one profession can do better than another, and there will oftentimes be things that one profession can do that no other profession can even attempt. This is our reality.

Now if you need an IC reason that Artisans can make special tatoos that noone else can make, consider this....isn't it possible that they're taught a special technique that is required for doing the inking?
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Kit
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
kit, you need to stop using real life in these arguements.


Then what am I suppose to use? Should I dive into my Douglas Adams and talk about the purple cowboy on the purple horse with the purple tables and mailboxes and all that? It's not like we're talking pulse guns. We're talking sewing and sodering.

Quote:
first off, other than yaru, the min age for everyone is, like, 16. so noone is 5.


Which means that people could have been sewing together napkins since before the popped outta the CM. It's not like you can just be a savant at birth, but sewing and building a computer are nothing alike.

Code:
second off, what do you think training in electronics means? just the ability to use electric things, or the ability to use and make electronic things.


For a non-technician, yes. Training electronics just means that you can use electronics. Like medics for their gear. Being able to use it doesn't mean they go McGiver and build a regenerator from some foil, gum, and pocket lint.


Code:
stop acting like things that don't involve machines can be done by monkeys.


Stop acting like putting together electronics is like making a pouch.
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zamde
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject:
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Since we're putting things into real-life perspective here, I find it only fair to point out that I've been bossing people around for my entire life, telling them to come, leave, and fetch me crap.

Now give me my damned droid.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject:
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oh, i know we need to suspend belief and say, "it needs to be seperate so professions have boons".

but, then there's also the question as to why everyone can dabble with basic artisan-based, mage-based, psionic-based, performer-based, and so-on based systems, but not basic tech-based systems.

this is a discussion for the sake of discussion, mind you. i have no intention of trying to raise a stink and say that everyone should get the gadget system.
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Kit
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:17 am    Post subject:
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zamde wrote:
I don't really care about making a robot; from what I know of the droids, you don't need skill to have one do stuff, you just command it to do stuff and it ignores you if you don't own it. So basically, I just want to buy one to order around, or, taking an example from how lots of people felt about the Trooper stuff being available to people with an inside connection, have a tech buy one for me.



Well, a droid comes blank. You go to the Vale and pick up a shell. It has all the connector wires, but none of the parts. So, you need to install all the parts. You need to weld all the complicated wirings to the main circuitboard, tweaking things as you go. This includes everything from the CPU to the coolant system, the personality chips, the voice emulators, and the gearboxes to make the things move.

Only the person that built the droid can use it. For instances, I can not install anything on Zap's droid. It's not just tech-only, its tech specific.

I think wiring a robot is a little more complicated then sewing some pants. Though, I've never tried to build a robot myself. I'd probably soder my fingers together.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:18 am    Post subject:
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Kit wrote:
Which means that people could have been sewing together napkins since before the popped outta the CM. It's not like you can just be a savant at birth, but sewing and building a computer are nothing alike.


its as easy to do a shitty job at soddering as it is easy to a shitty job at sewing. the only difference is burning a finger off with a sodder as opposed to stabbing an artery with a needle.

it is very easy to sodder, once you know how not to severely wound yourself. if someone is following an instruction manual, or is properly taught how (ie: training electronics), they'll also know how. this is the same as know how to properly sew after being taught how (ie: training tailoring).

why can everyone make basic tailored goods, with the creation of speciality goods being set for artisans, yet everyone can't create basic gadgets, with the best quality best result best types being set for techs?
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject:
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Kit wrote:
I think wiring a robot is a little more complicated then sewing some pants. Though, I've never tried to build a robot myself. I'd probably soder my fingers together.


odd, i can install a modem or some RAM into a computer, yet i can't sew worth a damn.

meanwhile, i have never been taught how to do either.

ps: this is why we don't use real life examples
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zamde
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject:
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So make it that Techs can buy droids and pawn them off to other people, a la the Trooper compound mules. Why is this so damned hard?
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Dixie Pierce says, "I heard Zamde can't have kids cause she lactates poison."

[Telepathy] Yaru Dex projects: I thought Zamde doesn't have kids because her womb is full of aisobs.

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SolitaryTurnip



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:24 am    Post subject:
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SOLDER! Jesus Christ! S-O-L-D-E-R.

I agree, though. I could easily put together a computer, but I couldn't wire a house or fix a microwave. I probably wouldn't even touch gadgets if I could (just like I don't make shirts even though I could), but I don't see why someone can't make an electronic thing or two with some training. Every argument I want to make is already hackneyed, so I won't go on longer.
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Kit
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
oh, i know we need to suspend belief and say, "it needs to be seperate so professions have boons".

but, then there's also the question as to why everyone can dabble with basic artisan-based, mage-based, psionic-based, performer-based, and so-on based systems, but not basic tech-based systems.

this is a discussion for the sake of discussion, mind you. i have no intention of trying to raise a stink and say that everyone should get the gadget system.



No one can do crat stuff. Or trooper stuff (combat doesn't count). Or agent stuff (unless an agent scribes someone a poison tome).

Concider this. Take all the things an artisan can do and all the the thinks a trooper or crat or tech or agent can do.

Artisans:
the 9 craft things that William said in another post....this includes the artisan only 'Awesome containers,' tattooing and weaving as well as the ability to do anything crafty better then anyone else.

Crats:
broker, do the case thing, interest.

agents:
snipe, see urban stuff, backstab

troopers:
commandeer, arrest people (later)

techs:
fix comm chips, install cybergear chips, get droids

These last four have the same amount or less that artisans have that are profession only. Plus, artisans have lots of other systems that are profession main while the last four do not.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject:
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SolitaryTurnip wrote:
SOLDER! Jesus Christ! S-O-L-D-E-R.


stop spelling soldier wrong. and this isn't even a trooper thread, sheesh.

and yeah, i forgot how to spell it so i was just parroting, woops.
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Kit
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:27 am    Post subject:
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zamde wrote:
So make it that Techs can buy droids and pawn them off to other people, a la the Trooper compound mules. Why is this so damned hard?



Morrigan closed the HQ to make all the goods there trooper only.
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Kit
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject:
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Besides, how do you know this is tech-only. We haven't gotten an update from Drake in awhile and we don't even know when gadgets will come out...if they're on hold, or whatnot. There's a possibility that everyone can make simple gadgets. No one knows. So this thread should be put on hold until whenever Drake comes out with gadgets.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject:
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Kit wrote:
No one can do crat stuff.


i can't sell items, or i can't do law cases?

Quote:
Or trooper stuff (combat doesn't count).


i can protect someone fine, i just can't jump infront of a bullet.

Quote:
Or agent stuff (unless an agent scribes someone a poison tome).


so agents can learn poisons from the leader, but anyone can learn from the agent.

Quote:
Concider this. Take all the things an artisan can do and all the the thinks a trooper or crat or tech or agent can do.


but the arguement isn't 'how many special things they can do'. it's 'how many systems do artisans excell at that everyone else can dabble in'.

anyone can make a backpack. a big backpack. just can't make a backpack as big as an artisan.

anyone can whittle. whittle well. just can't make things worth as much as an artisan. same for detailing. anyone can, artisans are best at it.

anyone can use spellsongs. just not as many or not as well as performers. same for magic. same for psionics. same for stances (everyone can learn some, but some have ones only they can learn).

the question is not why noone can make all gadgets, but why this craft system is set so noone non-tech can dabble, like every other creation system. let me repeat.

we are discussing creation systems. not non creation system specialities

Quote:
Besides, how do you know this is tech-only. We haven't gotten an update from Drake in awhile and we don't even know when gadgets will come out...if they're on hold, or whatnot. There's a possibility that everyone can make simple gadgets.


because this isn't a demand to let us do it. it's just a curious discussion.

you know, because people can have logical old-school-greek-style discussions about things without the intent to demand change.
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HR-Mickey
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Joined: 24 Nov 2002
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject:
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There are only four things that are Artisan-exclusive, not a one of them more than a few months old, tops. These are: Ishaik tattoos, high-capacity bags, weaving, and patterns. The latter three a month or less, actually. I know it's been said and said again, but there really aren't -any- abilities in the game that couldn't conceivably be emulated by someone else.
Additionally, as I've remarked elsewhere, I'm no slouch at repairing amp and transistor wireworks and coils, I've built more than my fair share of circuit boards for a living, and I do all the electrical and hardware work around the house. I've a pretty good grasp on the application of turbines and servos, and I could rebuild an engine with enough time. I've never taken a class or pored through textbooks, and I wouldn't consider myself an electrician or, in this case, Technician. I just applied a reasonable amount of common sense and natural know-how, and got better at it through experience. This kind of experience reflects the same kind of knowledge someone would get training in Electronics in game.
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Last edited by HR-Mickey on Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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