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Engagement System Discussion
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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Engagement System Discussion
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Within the next few days, I will have an engagement system ready for limited testing by players.

First of all, the whole grid concept (i.e., what you currently see when you type <ASSESS>) is going to be scrapped for an engagement system similar to DR/EO.

It's being done for a number of reasons, part of them resource issues, but mainly because I think it puts more of a burden on the player than it bestows a benefit.

I'm going to skip over some of the broad points (anyone who has no idea what to expect will be able to play with it a bit, hopefully sometime this week), and go straight to some of the details.

HIDING

Advancing while hiding will be significantly more difficult than advancing while visible. Unless you outclass your opponent by a good deal or are an Agent, it's unlikely you'll get all the way from missile to melee without being spotted.

In addition, the HIDE/SEARCH verbs will be altered to properly account for ranges.

WEAPONS

Weapons will also be updated to properly account for range in the following manner:

MELEE WEAPONS

Melee weapons won't be able to used outside of melee range. This one should be obvious.

POLE WEAPONS

Pole weapons will be usable in either pole or melee range, though the larger ones may be unwieldy at melee.

However, there is currently no way to determine the size/length of polearms, and will likely not be for a while.

RANGED WEAPONS

Rifles - Firearm and pulse rifles will be less accurate at longer ranges. This can be counteracted by fully aiming, and reduced further by using a weapon designed for longer ranges (such as the TG23 Rifle).

Handguns - Handguns will suffer a larger penalty from range than other firearms/pulse, and players will have less success in reducing it by aiming.

Flamethrowers and Shotguns - Flamethrowers and shotguns will do very little damage outside pole range (if they are able to hit at all).

Bows - Basic archery weapons will not suffer the same penalties at range as firearms and pulse, but will be inaccurate and unwieldy at melee.

Crossbows - Ranged penalties for crossbows will be somewhere inbetween the penalties for bows and rifles.

Multi-shot weapons - Each successive shot of multi-shot weapons will grow increasingly inaccurate at longer ranges.

The following will modify the speed at which you engage your enemies on combat. An asterisk denotes that it's already approved and written into the system, etc.

Bonuses:

*General bonus for agents

*Agility

*Athletics skill

*Tactics skill (when retreating)

Special Maneuvers (dash, flee, etc.)

Penalties:

*Reduced speed while aiming (penalty lessened by mentality)

*Reduced speed while in hiding (penalty lower for Agents of sufficient level)

*Reduced speed while retreating from more than one opponent (penalty lessened by tactics skill)

*Reduced speed for encumberance, armor hinderance, and leg damage

Reduced speed in certain terrains (penalty lower/nonexistant for Trackers of sufficient level)

Creatures:

Certain creatures will advance faster/slower than others.

[RANGED AND MULTI-OPPONENT PENALTIES]

The range modifiers for missile weapons are now live for PvP combat at the sparring grounds.

A few slight changes have been made to what was originally proposed:

Bows will now have a slight bonus to damage when fully aimed (and fired from outside melee).

Handguns will be less accurate than rifles (especially when fired unaimed at long ranges) but will aim faster, and will carry a much smaller penalty to engagement speed.

MULTIPLE OPPONENTS

The penalties for engaging multiple opponents are now live for PvP combat at the sparring grounds.

Tactics skill, intellect, and perception are all integral to defending yourself well from multiple opponents.

UPDATE!

[Polearms and Throwing Weapons]

Within the next few days, a fourth range will be added - between pole and missile - so as to better handle thrown weapons and certain polearms.

Pilum range will be the ideal range from which to use most thrown weapons. A tentative list for the ideal ranges for all weapons follows:

Melee Range

All bladed and blunt weapons (some of the two-handed ones may be used at pole range, but will perform better at melee)
All 1H polearms (see above comments)
All range weapons used with melee attacks
All unarmed attacks
Nunchaku, fans, tonfas, etc.
Shotguns and flamethrowers

Pole Range

Most polearms
Whips, nets, segmented staves, etc.
Heavy throwing weapons (heavy throwing axes, throwing clubs, heavy spears, melee weapons not specifically intended to be thrown)

Pilum Range
Long polearms (halberds, lances, pikes)
Light throwing weapons (light throwing axes, throwing knives, javelins, bolas)
Crossbows

Missile
Bows
Lightest throwing weapons (shuriken, darts)

Handguns and rifles can be used effectively from any range, but are more accurate closer to your target.

[CURRENT ENGAGEMENT SYSTEM VERBS]

ENGAGE/ADVANCE
DISENGAGE/RETREAT
DASH/RUN
FLEE
ASSESS
LEAP (Guardian-only)
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HR-Marduk

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Last edited by HR-Marduk on Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:35 am; edited 6 times in total
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TheTrackerChick
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Joined: 15 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:19 pm    Post subject:
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First question then.

Will there be a melee, ranged and an in between of the two? And if so, how will that work considering melee weapons won't be as good out of melee, and ranged not as good in melee? I would like to see an advancement system actually, is what I'm getting at.

Second question, you mentioned hiding. Will anything change for trackers, or for that matter agents. With their ambush, or trackers being able to aim in hiding?

Thanks in advance.
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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Will there be a melee, ranged and an in between of the two?


Yes.

Quote:
Will anything change for trackers, or for that matter agents. With their ambush, or trackers being able to aim in hiding?


Not likely.

Quote:
And if so, how will that work considering melee weapons won't be as good out of melee, and ranged not as good in melee?


Unless you have a more specific question, I believe this was addressed in my original post.
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HR-Marduk

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soundless
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject:
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Where do thrown weapons end up in all this?
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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:39 pm    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
Where do thrown weapons end up in all this?


On the ground, somewhere.

They'll probably end up using similar mechanics to rifles/handguns with modifiers for strength and coordination instead of aiming.
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HR-Marduk

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-- Sage Francis
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the blue fairy
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:40 pm    Post subject:
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busy busy busy

STILL
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Sorkaa



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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:13 pm    Post subject:
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Will we ever be able to modify our multi-shot pulse weapons for longer ranges?
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Marduk wrote:
On the ground, somewhere.


And that's another thing.

If I chuck a knife, will I autoget it, still have to do 'get knife', or will I have to run across the battle area to pick it up?
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SolitaryTurnip



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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:50 pm    Post subject:
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Will there be a way to attempt to stay at pole/ranged if a critter is approaching? Can we still LEAP around? And is there any chance we could leap to pole instead of melee?
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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:55 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
If I chuck a knife, will I autoget it, still have to do 'get knife', or will I have to run across the battle area to pick it up?


Don't see any reason to change how it works right now.

Quote:
Will there be a way to attempt to stay at pole/ranged if a critter is approaching? Can we still LEAP around? And is there any chance we could leap to pole instead of melee?


Yes.

Maybe.

See above.
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HR-Marduk

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-- Sage Francis
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Dzynna
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: Engagement System Discussion
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HR-Marduk wrote:
HIDING
Advancing while hiding will be significantly more difficult than advancing while visible. Unless you outclass your opponent by a good deal or are an Agent, it's unlikely you'll get all the way from missile to melee without being spotted.


Please do not forget that Trackers get a bonus to stealthiness in rural areas, and leaving us out of the stealth engagement system in those areas would be (to me) a slap in the face.


HR-Marduk wrote:

In addition, the HIDE/SEARCH verbs will be altered to properly account for ranges.


See above, please. Thank you.

HR-Marduk wrote:
WEAPONS

Weapons will also be updated to properly account for range in the following manner:

MELEE WEAPONS

Melee weapons won't be able to used outside of melee range. This one should be obvious.

POLE WEAPONS

Pole weapons will be usable in either pole or melee range, though the larger ones may be unwieldy at melee.

However, there is currently no way to determine the size/length of polearms, and will likely not be for a while.

RANGED WEAPONS

Rifles - Firearm and pulse rifles will be less accurate at longer ranges. This can be counteracted by fully aiming, and reduced further by using a weapon designed for longer ranges (such as the TG23 Rifle).

Handguns - Handguns will suffer a larger penalty from range than other firearms/pulse, and players will have less success in reducing it by aiming.

Flamethrowers and Shotguns - Flamethrowers and shotguns will do very little damage outside pole range (if they are able to hit at all).

Bows - Basic archery weapons will not suffer the same penalties at range as firearms and pulse, but will be inaccurate and unwieldy at melee.

Crossbows - Ranged penalties for crossbows will be somewhere inbetween the penalties for bows and rifles.

Multi-shot weapons - Each successive shot of multi-shot weapons will grow increasingly inaccurate at longer ranges.


One at a time...

Melee - makes perfect sense
Pole - makes perfect sense
Rifles and Handguns - makes sense, to an extent. How big is a 'room' exactly? I may be mistaken, but I've never pictured a MUD room in HR as so big that firing a gun from ranged would cause a significant reduction in accuracy. The same applies all the way down, but I'm adding other responses also.
Flamethrowers and shotguns - things of this nature should provide a big enough 'blast' that accuracy isn't as necessary.
Bows - makes sense - firing a bow at something in your face would be next to impossible...if what you are shooting at is living, they'd knock it of your hand (or at least knock the arrow loose) before you could release an arrow.
Crossbows - should do the most damage/be the most accurate at pole, but you can still fire a crossbow at point blank range, and if your shot isn't knocked wild by what you are trying to shoot, it can be devastating. They can also do a lot of damage with a great deal of accuracy from a distance away, and make for very good 'non-gun/rifle' hunting weapons.
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Tugor
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Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:26 am    Post subject:
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I think it would be cool if some rooms had interactive terrain. Like trees you can hide behind or rocks you can take cover behind, I dunno how hard that would be for you to make happen but its a cool idea none the less.
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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:46 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
Please do not forget that Trackers get a bonus to stealthiness in rural areas, and leaving us out of the stealth engagement system in those areas would be (to me) a slap in the face.


There will almost certainly be some sort of bonus for trackers in the wilderness.

Quote:
Rifles and Handguns - makes sense, to an extent. How big is a 'room' exactly? I may be mistaken, but I've never pictured a MUD room in HR as so big that firing a gun from ranged would cause a significant reduction in accuracy. The same applies all the way down, but I'm adding other responses also.


The reduction is for shooting without aiming. Think of it this way: if we're dueling, I have a lot better chance of missing if we walk twenty paces, turn, and shoot, than if we walk one pace, turn, and shoot.

Quote:
Flamethrowers and shotguns - things of this nature should provide a big enough 'blast' that accuracy isn't as necessary.


If your flamethrower shoots 25 feet and you're at 40 feet, the 'blast' isn't going to matter. As for shotguns, they may work the way you describe, but the very nature of the shotgun means that the further away you are, the less damage it does.

Quote:
I think it would be cool if some rooms had interactive terrain. Like trees you can hide behind or rocks you can take cover behind


Won't be happening anytime soon.
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HR-Marduk

Quote:
i noticed that the swoosh symbol was nothing but a whip in mid swing

-- Sage Francis
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Brokyn
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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:41 am    Post subject:
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Does this mean that Guardians are finally getting their ultimate-flying-kick-of-doom-that-takes-them-from-ranged-to-melee-in-a-split-second attack?

Neutral

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HR-Marduk



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 252

 Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject:
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Brokyn wrote:
Does this mean that Guardians are finally getting their ultimate-flying-kick-of-doom-that-takes-them-from-ranged-to-melee-in-a-split-second attack?


You'd have to type that every time. And I'll know if you're cheating.
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HR-Marduk

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