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Nojn



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 18

 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:10 pm    Post subject: Defend
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Could it be explained why the Defend player is only offered to Troopers? It is my impression that a Guardian is also here to defend, but I could be wrong. It might seem like I am complaining, its because I am. Nothing seems to be done to strengthen the Guardian role in this game ever. I know of no specific things Guardians can do that other professions already can't. One example is pummel. The Guardians main offense is unarmed, yet other professions have access to this move. There is no one specific unarmed move that Guardians have that others don't! You have a Merc shop that offers (I am told because I can't enter) bonus unarmed items to Mercs. Mercs can use any weapon, why would unarmed items be offered to them only? You have Psionic and Mage only spells also. True, we have meditations that help with stats, but nothing a potion available to any profession can't equal. Also, were not Guardians supposed to be able to calm an area of violence? Seems performers are already able to do this now. Just what is in store for the Guardian profession or is it just a role that has been forgotten now. I truely love being a Guardian, but it seems the role is useless and will die off. No wonder only 6 or so percent choose this profession.

Peace

Nojn
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject:
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Nojn:

Guardians are a solid combat class. I have for some time considered new unarmed attacks for them specifically, and may add some. However, we should keep in mind that you have other benefits - stances, meditations, and eventually, sigils (sigils are going to be particularly awesome, in my book). Also keep in mind while others can use, say, pummel, you can use it much sooner. Same would be said of ANY UNARMED ATTACK added.

But let's address a deeper issue here. Different staff members have both different plans and schedules than each other. Hunter is the guru for Guardians and frankly, he works differently than I do. He has been working on things and doing releases behind the scenes for your profession. But most of all, Hunter is really excited about live and wants to delve into Guardian stuff there moreso than do lots of work here and redo it later.

Because someone, say me, does work on a certain profession or professions, doesn't mean that every other profession should expect stuff too. It doesn't work that way. This is especially true for professions I am the guru of (Mages, Psionics, technically Trackers and Bureaucrats for now), but even outside of that realm. I identified a cool ability to add -- one that people have been asking for almost as long as the "test" has been open.

Note, you get defend. You don't get to intercept hits for other people. It's not your role. Troopers have superior armor, and a defense bonus. You don't. The way in which you protect others is a completely different way.

Would I like to see more stuff for Guardians? Absolutely. Would Hunter? Damn right. Do I think you're getting screwed over and your class is useless? Absolutely not.

Final point -- this issue of "only 6% of players play this" is really unfair. Let's use some examples. 7% of the game population plays Troopers, the profession you're so envious of. 10% play Mercs who have techniques, but not much else to call their own (yet). 4% of the game play Bureaucrats despite the fact everyone is always looking for one, same for techs at 6%. 6% play medics despite the fact we have medics running themselves ragged to do revives. 13% play agents who have very few abilities of their own right now as well. 5% of the population plays Performers, who have an ungodly amount of abilities. 12% play Trackers, who have lots of nice bonuses, but few abilities of their own.

My point? Those percentages are in no way, shape, or form a reflection of the power or worth of that profession. To say my profession sucks because only 6% of the game play it is totally totally wrong.

BTW, if you use precision math to correct rounding, Guardians come out as 7% of the population, not 6%. It should be noted that an "even share" of the population would be 8.3%, (100 / 12 professions = 8.3%) so you are not that far off. I'll also point out you're ahead of 5 other professions. You're #6 on a list of 12 in terms of numbers, which places you squarely on the average mark.

Final note, even though you didn't make this about Troopers vs. Guardians explicitly, I wish to point out using the data you posted, there is only -1- more Trooper than Guardian in the list.
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HR-Hunter



Joined: 06 Sep 2002
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:14 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Could it be explained why the Defend player is only offered to Troopers? It is my impression that a Guardian is also here to defend, but I could be wrong.


It's not a guardians role to be a meat shield for someone, especially concidering the no armor bit. Their assumed wisdom would lead them to find a better way... Guardians try to maintain the peace, but not in any official capacity as a govt employee. More of a peacemaker/arbitrator.

Quote:
Nothing seems to be done to strengthen the Guardian role in this game ever. I know of no specific things Guardians can do that other professions already can't.


How about meditations and alot of stances that are guardian only?

Quote:
One example is pummel. The Guardians main offense is unarmed, yet other professions have access to this move. There is no one specific unarmed move that Guardians have that others don't!


All combat attacks are open to everyone at this time, there are none that are profession only.

Quote:
True, we have meditations that help with stats, but nothing a potion available to any profession can't equal.


Concidering you can stack most meditations WITH the potion to get a greater effect, that's not a bad thing. Also as a guardian you have the greatest amount of free points to spend where you choose, like perhaps alchemy. There are also five other meditations you haven't accessed yet, one can only assume that the highest powers might be the best ones.

Quote:
Also, were not Guardians supposed to be able to calm an area of violence? Seems performers are already able to do this now.


Just because one profession gets an ability doesn't always mean another one can't... look at all the different telaportation powers available.

Quote:
Just what is in store for the Guardian profession or is it just a role that has been forgotten now.


Besides Sigils, I have a few other things in mind that I wanted to save as a surprise.

Quote:
I truely love being a Guardian, but it seems the role is useless and will die off. No wonder only 6 or so percent choose this profession.


Well let's see...
Code:
Agent       : 304 (13%)
Artisan     : 117 ( 5%)
Bureaucrat  : 103 ( 4%)
Guardian    : 164 ( 7%)
Mage        : 249 (10%)
Medic       : 154 ( 6%)
Mercenary   : 238 (10%)
Performer   : 122 ( 5%)
Psionic     : 291 (12%)
Technician  : 145 ( 6%)
Tracker     : 262 (11%)
Trooper     : 165 ( 7%)


Well if % played means anything, then I spose you're right. However, artisans, bureaucrats, medics, performers, technicians, and troopers seem to be in the same boat.
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Nojn



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 18

 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject:
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Thanks for the reply Trevor,

First off I am not the least envious of the Trooper profession as I used to be one myself. It was my understanding that Guardians were "Servants of an ancient holy order established by the Jaddan to protect the world of Haelrahv, Guardians are powerful warriors, but strive to solve conflicts peacefully when possible. Hence my puzzlement at why we are not allowed the Defend player option the Troopers have for themselves. It also irks me that the 40th level title for Guardian is Defender! It is true we have stances and meditations. At this point and my level I have only found one stance that has any definate use that is possibly for sole use for Guardians. Stances that I have learned I have also seen in other roles, possibly by higher level players. I am probably one of the highest level Guardians at the moment. I do encourage other new players to become Guardians. The one point you mention as we have more options for our skill points, being not training armor, pulse, etc.. is a plus. I would just love to be able to stop conflict before death is a result. I have found that talking with someone or finding a non-violent solution with words alone is increasingly difficult when you have no other means at your disposal to diffuse the situation. I have no option to bash someone with a shield to stun them to stop their actions as do some. And I admit, it does have a great use!

The 6% I referenced I got from the current percentage listed on the home page for Guardians. I probably worded it wrong but was meaning to say it is not one of the more popular professions and I do understand there are many that are not as popular.

When two or more inhabitants are in battle, how do you suggest we stop them and ask them to desist? We have no way of calming the area as now can be done with other professions. We see people getting attacked as they are retreiving their items from graves. They are most vunerable to attack at this point. The only way to protect them at this point is to engage the person on the offensive. What I would love to see is an alternative method of achieving this goal. I very much dislike killing someone to protect another, yet it is my impression from you reply it is more of a Trooper role to do this? A Guardian purpose is to protect the world of Haelrahv, does this not mean protect other inhabitants of Haelrahv?

Let me end this drawn out reply in saying I do truly like being a Guardian and do hope more things come in live. I appreciate the hard work and time it takes for you and your staff to build this site. I just want the Guardians to be the best they can be! (As each profession does also)

If some of this reply is redundant, I just want to state one thing in my defense! I am Jaddan! (Not known for high intellect, humor me!

Nojn
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:58 pm    Post subject:
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I think you're considering defend in the wrong way.

Defend is more like a CIA agent jumping infront of the president, not just standing there and drawing the target away.

Guardians, being naked monks, would die if they tried to do this. Troopers are heavily armored so them being meat shields makes more sense.
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HR-Hunter



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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:00 pm    Post subject:
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I think when you get "meditate mind", all your concerns will be satisfied and then some. Unfortunately it's the highest level one because it IS the most powerfull.

A guardian wouldn't want to just jump in front of a bullet and die in the other persons place, in the greater balance of things, it doesn't help. And if the guardian has any ego at all (not supposed to, but nobody's perfect) then they might see it as an overall greater loss if they feel they can do more in their lifetime then the person they save. A guardian would rather talk them out of firing a bullet at all.
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Nojn



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject:
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Hunter,

I guess I am just confused when in one instance it is said that "Guardians are a solid combat class" and in another instance we are not out to do anything but talk people out of combat or violence. Defending inhabitants falls under the Trooper profession. I understand that the first choice is a non-violent way to avoid conflict. As it stands, this is futile with what is available to Guardians at this time. We have no other way other than to stop the offensive person in the only way possible, which would mean injuring them or possibly killing them. This is NOT what I would expect from a guardian.

How is one to defend (as the 40th title says) by words? I am just frustrated that what I want from this character can't be accomplished without violent means. Although it may not look it, I do hate killing other players to stop conflict but it is the only way I know to have it cease. One can attack and have killed someone before you have anyway to react. That is one reason the Defend player option is one I would like to have as a Guardian. All meditations that I have received so far are either offensive or defensive options. I would think being a profession that is to talk others out of violence, a meditation would be available to stop conflict. Possibly the meditate mind does just this as you say. I would do anything including sacrificing myself to save another player from death, even if it means my own. (Although that would be my least favorite option! )

It just gets to me being the level I am and still have really no other options available to meditate or protect players or calm an area at the moment. The Guardian profession is for me and I hope to remain one. I know new things are planned for live also. Just that I constantly see unique things added to other professions as the Guardian profession is idled. I am not one to use potions, although they are available to me. As a Guardian, I want to use only my mind and strength most of the time. I have some spells but have stopped adding more. The one I basically use is restoring health to someone that had been killed or to someone I had exterminated to stop continued violence. It may sound conflicting but at times a Guardian must stop violence by other means than words. Meaning one death to save suffering of others is justified. This is where I see the offensive power coming into play.

Please continue the hard work on this profession. I am proud to be a Guardian! It truely can be unique and satisfying for me.

Peace

Nojn

Jaddan Guardian (Level unknown)

(Figures a Jaddan wouldn't remember his level)
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Tylen
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject:
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Nojn wrote:
It just gets to me being the level I am and still have really no other options available to meditate or protect players or calm an area at the moment. The Guardian profession is for me and I hope to remain one. I know new things are planned for live also. Just that I constantly see unique things added to other professions as the Guardian profession is idled.


Hey it could be worse, you could have been a Bureaucrat. We've had two things happen to us since I became one. First was a serious (and I'd say overly done) cut in interest at mid to high levels. Second was an ability (that didn't even get mentioned in the forums or news) that I still have fairly mixed feelings about.

Ok seriously (now that I've stopped laughing/crying), I'd say just realize that there really isn't going to be a lot of stuff coming out until Live.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject:
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Just a note, there are a few things coming out soon that require a Bureaucrat.
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SteveH999



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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject:
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It's weird, I see all this talk about Agents being the largest profession, but I rarely see any others in the game. Is there some kind of Agent hideout that they all go to that I don't know about, or something?
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SolitaryTurnip



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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject:
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They probably hide their professions, like mercenaries.
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HR-Faith
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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Hey it could be worse, you could have been a Bureaucrat. We've had two things happen to us since I became one. First was a serious (and I'd say overly done) cut in interest at mid to high levels. Second was an ability (that didn't even get mentioned in the forums or news) that I still have fairly mixed feelings about.

Ok seriously (now that I've stopped laughing/crying), I'd say just realize that there really isn't going to be a lot of stuff coming out until Live.


Good, then you will be pleasantly surprised soon. Cool
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Chevonne



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 171

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:00 am    Post subject:
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I guess for me, personally, I'm confused too. I love being a guardian too. But, maybe I was wrong on what I thought the guardian role was/would be/will be. Like Nojn said, the 40th title for Guardian is "Defender", which lead me to believe that we would be defenders of other people. Yet, we really have no way of doing that. We are guardians with no way to guard. Defenders who can't defend others other than casting armor spells on people or giving them health. Yet, we are not experts at that either.

I understand the points made about how we don't use armor and aren't meant to be a meat shield for other people. But, if we aren't supposed to defend people, what is our role in the game? It's hard to role-play a defender of the weak, or Guardian of others when we have no tools to do so.

Quote:
He has been working on things and doing releases behind the scenes for your profession. But most of all, Hunter is really excited about live and wants to delve into Guardian stuff there moreso than do lots of work here and redo it later.


This has been my hope all along. I am patient and willing to wait. I knew when I became a Guardian that I would get better as I got older, but isn't this the case with all professions? I am more than willing to wait for the good things that I think and hope are in store for us, but sometimes I get discouraged and wonder if these things are ever really going to happen. This little bit posted here is enough to make the wait more bearable.

Quote:
It's not a guardians role to be a meat shield for someone, especially concidering the no armor bit. Their assumed wisdom would lead them to find a better way... Guardians try to maintain the peace, but not in any official capacity as a govt employee. More of a peacemaker/arbitrator.


I definately understand this point too, and I'm excited to see how this might happen for us. But, if performers calm rooms, mages cast better armor spells than us, and troopers take hits for others... I'm still clueless as to our role or how to even role-play maintaining peace with unreasonable people.

After playing a thief for so long, I decided to reallocated my Agent to being a Guardian because I wanted to explore being a protector, instead of running for my life and being the antagonizer all the time. I am extremely happy that I did, it's a nice change for me. I could have been a Trooper, but I saw a difference between Troopers and Guardians that I found intriguing and interesting. I saw/see Guardians as protectors and defenders without having to kill anyone, except as a last resort and not having to chase people around to haul them to jail. I just see no way of accomplishing that right now. I'm hoping that there are plans for Guardians to immobilize others and diffuse hostile situations, and I guess I feel like these plans are most likely in the works.

It's just frustrating. I feel like Guardians give up alot just to be Guardians. There are many many stat and to a lesser extent, skill bonuses that we are unable to use due to the fact that they can only be added to weapons or armor, which we not only don't use (nor do we want to), but are unable to even hold because we won't be able to pummel.

I didn't become a Guardian so i could be the best fighter. I would have become a Merc if that's what I wanted. And, I didn't become a Guardian so that I could arrest people and bring them to jail. I became a Guardian so I could defend people and be the "good guy". I just don't see many ways of doing that at this point, yet I see many ways for some other professions to end conflicts without violence.

Sorry that it was so long...

-Chevonne
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D'zun



Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:02 am    Post subject:
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I know that I am not the most powerful of Guardians and that I have not been around as long as many of you. But I think we are being way to harsh about our abilities. Granted we are not able to stop a conflict from happening with a mere thought or magical presence. But I see our roles as more of a holy order. Our role should be more of a peace bringer. We negotiate for order not enforce it. We fight only when necessary and interfere only when we are left with no other option. As a holy order much like the shaolin monks we must also accept that fate will intervene and that all things in the world have a purpose. I have modeled my persona along these lines. Bringing wisdom and guidance and focusing on spreading peace and understanding before things escalate into battle. As far as defending Haelrahv, our order may be designed around negotiations between the races, keeping the people peaceful rather than playing the "meat shield" as so many have adequately described it. Our role, in my opinion, is a higher order. To stop bloodshed through words and wisdom and not fists and firearms.

In regards to the abilities we have been granted, I am more than pleased with everything I have received so far. I think Hunter and whoever else has put such effort into the profession have done a marvelous job. We are a formidable force. Our abilities are quite impressive when combined with our meditations as well as our skill bonuses. I refuse to see the negatives and focus on all the wonderful skills we have already in our possession.

Humbly,

D'zun T'kath
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Chevonne



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject:
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D'zun,

It doesn't matter how powerful you are, or how long you've been around. Any feedback from other Guardians is good, in my opinion. Tho, I will comment on a few things.

I don't feel as tho I have been harsh at all. Merely stating my concerns and opinions on a profession that I love playing. I hope that you don't take my posts as a plea to be able to "stop a conflict from happening with a mere thought or magical presence". This is not what I'm asking for. I definately role-play a type of Guardian who tries to "Bring wisdom and guidance and focusing on spreading peace and understanding before things escalate into battle." I'm pretty solitary, but I definately remember one instance in particuliar when I came to CC and took a player to another room (he agreed to come with me, I didn't drag him or anything) and talked to him about his behavior, and things turned out very well. I like to role-play this way and it's why I became a guardian. My character is tolerant of others to the extreme, IMO. That doesn't mean I think all Guardians should be.

I'm probably being too sensitive here, but when you say things like...

Quote:
In regards to the abilities we have been granted, I am more than pleased with everything I have received so far. I think Hunter and whoever else has put such effort into the profession have done a marvelous job. We are a formidable force. Our abilities are quite impressive when combined with our meditations as well as our skill bonuses. I refuse to see the negatives and focus on all the wonderful skills we have already in our possession.


.... it sounds like you are insinuating that we don't feel these things too. I, for one, have tried very hard to express the fact that I am very happy with the abilities we have. I also see Guardians as a formidable force and definately thank Hunter and anyone else involved with our profession. I do, after all, choose to stay one. But, I can't say that I refuse to see the negative and only focus on the positive. I have been frustrated and discouraged by certain things, and I chose to post about those things here because I thought that's what we were supposed to do? These aren't things that are going to make me stop being a guardian, or even leave Haelrahv. They are things that I want to post so those with the power to change things know how I feel. Whether my posts or anyone else's change anything or not is up to them. Sometimes it's very hard to post because I feel like other people just think I'm complaining all the time. But, the truth is, I don't want to just sit around hoping other people post what I want to post like I have in other games.

-Chevonne
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