FAQ Log in
Search Profile
Memberlist Usergroups
Log in to check your private messages
Register
Jump To: Haelrahv Main Site | My Haelrahv Account | Haelrahv Play Page
More PvP please
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic
The Official Haelrahv Message Forum Forum Index » "Live" Discussions » More PvP please
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:08 am    Post subject: More PvP please
Reply with quote

This is an idea I've had stuck in my head for a while but really just haven't managed to get around to typing it up.

I think it first came up when some level 2 psionic was casting on Mellie. At first it struck me as outrageous, but after a while it made sense that no matter how experienced you are, you're still vulnerable if you don't train the appropriate defenses.

But this also worries me as a player of a noncombat profession. It's not really fair to me to have to worry about every level 2 trooper, mercenary, etc., with a bully complex. Currently my only options are to:

1) talk to the offender (not much of an option with most of these people),
2) train up my subpar combat skills (losing points I need for my own professional skills and won't really help me with anyone even close to my level), or
3) hire a mercenary (not necessarily dependable or effective, plus I like my money a lot more than I like dealing with other people).

So I spent some time thinking and worked out a very vague idea of a PvP system that:

1) doesn't necessarily use combat/violence,
2) uses my own core skills (and probably the same or a similar skill to defend against it), and
3) on those occasions I'm in a bad mood, can be used as a first strike against someone.

Basically what I would like to see are PvP abilities based on certain noncombat skills. I realize a lot of skills just aren't very well suited to conflict (try to think of a way to use Tailoring against someone!), but I did manage to come up with a few suggestions.

Electronics: an EMP type device to disable someone's cyberwear and electronic devices
Medicine: DNA targeted viruses (not necessarily lethal, they can have other detrimental effects like poisons do)
Persuasion: convince NPC merchants not to do business with that person for some amount of time dependent on skill
Security: deny a person access to their bank account, vault, and image for some amount of time

I know most of those seem to have fairly weak consequences, but death (the usual result of PvP these days) really isn't much of a setback either. Then there's my personal favorite...

Law: The easy action is to sue someone. But more fun (once we get a justice system) would be to have the ability to accuse people and get them arrested for crimes they didn't commit. More serious crimes with more skill, and that would also make it more likely the charge will stick.
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kelasa



Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 363

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:30 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

intimidation- Makes a person of lower will or level think twice of attacking a person with a lot of intimidation unless combat has already been initiated.

I think these are some great ideas personally.
_________________
One must have knowledge beyond learning, and wisdom beyond understanding to say what can or cannot be.
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
winddancer
Hah! In your dreams, bub!


Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 275

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:03 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Ooh, I like the ideas.

I don't like killing people, and prefer a non-violent method of sticking it to the meaniehead.

Belethe
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
tygerwulf
Teh Pink Assassin.


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 1189
Location: Hiding right behind you, Don't look!

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:18 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

I like the ideas also, but most of them seem like they could be abused pretty easily, then we'd end up with techs and artisans and crats with bully complexes, yes, though strange to think of, it could happen.
_________________
>ask librarian about books
An elderly librarian says, "I don't know much about that, I'm afraid."
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
winddancer
Hah! In your dreams, bub!


Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 275

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:24 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

tygerwulf wrote:
I like the ideas also, but most of them seem like they could be abused pretty easily, then we'd end up with techs and artisans and crats with bully complexes, yes, though strange to think of, it could happen.


And that's different from bullies who misuse their combat skills...how?

Belethe
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:06 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Very interesting/fun ideas. Devil's advocate question: Would death be a reasonable deterrent for the <insert non-combat profession here> if that person were bullying, say, a Merc with their non-combat abilities?
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Kelasa wrote:
intimidation- Makes a person of lower will or level think twice of attacking a person with a lot of intimidation unless combat has already been initiated.


Yeah I had thought of that but it seemed a little too close to a "calm" ability. One idea I just had is to use intimidation to "scare" people so that they go into hiding and can't do anything that would reveal themselves (and they automatically try to rehide if someone points at them).


Kelasa wrote:
I think these are some great ideas personally.


winddancer wrote:
Ooh, I like the ideas.

I don't like killing people, and prefer a non-violent method of sticking it to the meaniehead.


Thanks for the support.

winddancer wrote:
tygerwulf wrote:
I like the ideas also, but most of them seem like they could be abused pretty easily, then we'd end up with techs and artisans and crats with bully complexes, yes, though strange to think of, it could happen.


And that's different from bullies who misuse their combat skills...how?


I think she sufficiently answered that one.

HR-Trevor wrote:
Very interesting/fun ideas. Devil's advocate question: Would death be a reasonable deterrent for the <insert non-combat profession here> if that person were bullying, say, a Merc with their non-combat abilities?


Sure, if that's all the merc had the skill for. Or they could hire a noncombatant to return the favor. I'm sure once Bureaucrats get some real abilities, they'll be taking out little classified ads announcing their litigous prowess. Laughing

I don't really have anything against combat or those in the combat-oriented professions. But right now everyone else seems to be rather lagging behind, even with all the existing non-combat systems which I'll admit are already better than some other games. (Although it's still a major gripe I have that Excavating is better suited to people who train combat stats instead of being based on something like Research.)

I would just like to see everyone else on a (more-or-less) equal footing with the ability to defend themselves. And yes, since this is free-PvP game, the ability to strike out at others.
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
winddancer
Hah! In your dreams, bub!


Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 275

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

HR-Trevor wrote:
Very interesting/fun ideas. Devil's advocate question: Would death be a reasonable deterrent for the <insert non-combat profession here> if that person were bullying, say, a Merc with their non-combat abilities?


OOh! OOH! I have a SUPER answer! *bouncebounce*

My response would be: Based on recent events, did being killed multiple times by older protective guardians stop certain known bullies from continuing to physically attack younger and combat-weak players?

If death didn't stop those combat-bullies....

To the person/persons who expressed concern about alternative means of defending oneself and bullies:

You can't stop bullies from being bullies. It's life. But are we to have NO alternative measures just because certain people only want one kind of bully with no means of balancing that?

All that's being asked is that there be reasonable options for resolving conflicts beyond that of the end of a starblade or the barrel of a gun.

In most multiplayer games, the only way conflicts are resolved is through violence. That's passe. We should have other ways of dealing with conflict.

Like the methods Aesal and others suggested.

Sure there's a more legitimate, indirect route. For example, the justice system. Have people complain about a certain character's ruffianish behaviors and then have that person get tossed in jail (to be let out of bail at a certain price) until a court date is set where some lawyers can go at it in court...perhaps with serious repercussions if the character is found guilty.

But is that the only non-violent means of trying to resolve a conflict? At this point, the ONLY thing that's obvious in most multiplayer games is that the one with the strongest weapon hand wins.

In a world like Haelrahv with rich and diverse cultures...surely societies have moved beyond such a simplistic way of life?

Regardless of our primal nature, we are still capable of fighting back through brains.

So why not represent that giant step up the evolution ladder in this game? *grin*

Belethe
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
senseandviolets



Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 358
Location: Land of the lizards.

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:26 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Well put Belethe.

I'd like to add that this could also compliment the law system, in so far as that abuse of these abilities could be subject to legal penalies in court just as violent actions would be.

I also think it would be fun if in order to earn these abilities one had to not only have a prerequisite amount of skill, but also have to go on an automated mini-quest before being granted them.
_________________
Behind every optic is a mathematic.
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Yeah, the main reason I trained marksmanship was because I realized that, nomatter how well a job the others do in policing the general snerts in the game, they'll still always come back. Thankfully, Yaru learning how to use a weapon isn't a roleplay fart and it makes sense for him to want to defend himself. On an OOC level, though, I would have preferred just having Yaru learn his artisan skills (and use some combat spells on the side for those rare cases), but sadly there's nothing he can do to fight that relates to his profession (yet).
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

winddancer wrote:
stuff


I liked this too. For a game that seems to want to pride itself in being different, it's unfortunate we still have a "conflict = combat" philosophy.

senseandviolets wrote:
I'd like to add that this could also compliment the law system, in so far as that abuse of these abilities could be subject to legal penalies in court just as violent actions would be.


Sounds reasonable to me.

soundless wrote:
Yeah, the main reason I trained marksmanship was because I realized that, nomatter how well a job the others do in policing the general snerts in the game, they'll still always come back. Thankfully, Yaru learning how to use a weapon isn't a roleplay fart and it makes sense for him to want to defend himself. On an OOC level, though, I would have preferred just having Yaru learn his artisan skills (and use some combat spells on the side for those rare cases), but sadly there's nothing he can do to fight that relates to his profession (yet).


Yep, I feel your pain. It's people like you I want to help!
_________________
** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:16 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Tylen wrote:

Yeah I had thought of that but it seemed a little too close to a "calm" ability. One idea I just had is to use intimidation to "scare" people so that they go into hiding and can't do anything that would reveal themselves (and they automatically try to rehide if someone points at them).


We already have a ton of fear abilities (most psi-based) as is, though. More so that calming, for sure.

Tylen wrote:

Sure, if that's all the merc had the skill for. Or they could hire a noncombatant to return the favor. I'm sure once Bureaucrats get some real abilities, they'll be taking out little classified ads announcing their litigous prowess.


Just as a worthy mentionable, Bureaucrats got a bone tossed their way today.

Tylen wrote:

I don't really have anything against combat or those in the combat-oriented professions. But right now everyone else seems to be rather lagging behind, even with all the existing non-combat systems which I'll admit are already better than some other games. (Although it's still a major gripe I have that Excavating is better suited to people who train combat stats instead of being based on something like Research.)


I hear you. I can think of a few good reasons though. Firstly, we have a lot of combat-specific professions, whereas non-combat specific professions tend to instead be niche professions. For example - Mercs, Troopers, Guardians are virtually pure combat and for a great part so are Agent, Mage, Psionic, and Tracker though those have other roles too. Now contrast this with Artisan: Creation/Repair non-tech, Bureaucrat: Political/Business, Medic: Healing/Cosmetic, Performer: General Utility/Entertainment (but damn well suited for combat), Technician: Creation/Repair Tech. You can see where some have a general role where blanket systems cover them, and others don't.

Also, non-combat professions generally much more research from the person building them. The biggest problem Bureaucrats have is a combination of complex needs and no guru.

Tylen wrote:

I would just like to see everyone else on a (more-or-less) equal footing with the ability to defend themselves. And yes, since this is free-PvP game, the ability to strike out at others.


I can sympathize, and I agree to a point. But it's hard to imagine how much certain professions could really do. Bureaucrats could do a lot in the non-combat way. But say an Artisan? At least on their own, the worst they can do is refuse to help people. It's probably a bit much to really hope for equal footing in a solo situation. It would be nice though.

Belethe wrote:

Lots of stuff I won't paste, for brevity.


I was hoping for more than 'they can do it so why can't we', but I'm not dismissing that as a valid answer. Obviously killing people does not resolve problems in many cases. There needs to be a resolution to that so it is more effective, IMO, so that it's a better tool. Maybe not wildly more effective as that mean the bullied also loses out, but it seems evident that in many cases we are able to organize the lynch mob, it's just not helping a lot. That was my point, and my question was, will these non-combat suggestions have that same effect, or will they have completely opposite effect and be TOO powerful?

I'm not dismissing the ideas. They're great ideas. I'm just having a discussion on their potential effects.

Tylen wrote:

I liked this too. For a game that seems to want to pride itself in being different, it's unfortunate we still have a "conflict = combat" philosophy.


That doesn't seem like a very fair statement. Nor an accurate one. But I would like to think that statement was made out of misunderstanding rather than an intent to speak ill of the game/staff. So I'll clarify our stance. It's always been our intention to have non-combat means to handle issues. These aren't simple systems you just toss out though, they take a lot of work and time to do right. Time we've been putting into live, etc. Even time we've put into things in test that one could call less important, because our intent has been to transition to live asap.

That time table has slowed down some now as I believe we really need to add some new content and features, and measures to handle conflicts is one of our goals. It has never, ever been our intent to say, "Fight well, get someone who can, or get screwed over."
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:37 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

HR-Trevor wrote:
That doesn't seem like a very fair statement. Nor an accurate one. But I would like to think that statement was made out of misunderstanding rather than an intent to speak ill of the game/staff.


I don't think it's that the staff aren't trying, it's that there's nothing a newbie can really [currently] do if someone is constantly killing them over and over other than log off. If it wasn't for people in the game wanting to police the snerts themselves, this would be a really big issue.
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Quote:
If it wasn't for people in the game wanting to police the snerts themselves, this would be a really big issue.


True, but if people didn't prefer to police themselves, we'd just have a policy and GM enforcement like most other games.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

HR-Trevor wrote:
Quote:
If it wasn't for people in the game wanting to police the snerts themselves, this would be a really big issue.


True, but if people didn't prefer to police themselves, we'd just have a policy and GM enforcement like most other games.


Personally, I like player-enforcement, but I would like to see people who are clearly doing things with blatant disregard to consequences to get punished somehow in an IC manner.

Like if someone keep shooting around in CC without a reason, they should get their weapons confiscated for awhile. Maybe if they keep at it they get a bit of jailtime, or have some royal guards attack them.
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
The Official Haelrahv Message Forum Forum Index » "Live" Discussions » More PvP please
Post new topic   Reply to topic All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Top Index




Solaris phpBB theme/template by Jakob Persson
Copyright © Jakob Persson 2003



Powered by phpBB 2.0.22 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group