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New potion prices
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The Official Haelrahv Message Forum Forum Index » Alchemy & Poisons » New potion prices
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:35 am    Post subject: New potion prices
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Before the change, potions requiring higher skill to learn would sell for more than the lower skill potions. Is there any plan to add something like that in the new pricing system? Perhaps the higher skill potions could also have higher price caps.
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Josie
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Joined: 14 Jan 2003
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:29 am    Post subject:
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yeah i really dont care for the new way the potions are set up either. I can make 63 dose potions and at 35 a unit thats $2205 a potion, which is less than what i used to get selling the 1st potion, almost 1500 less than what i get for selling my highest learned one. Not to mention the fact that potions that take mineables, which are alot harder to make (i.e. mining them individually then having to crush or smelt and shave before even being able to combine them into bundles of 50) the same price as those that just need forageables which are alot easier. Anyway, just my opinion. Also since they are on the commods list now does that mean that potion/poison prices will drop if someone sells without a crat?

Josie
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:37 am    Post subject:
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As we know, we are in a test phase. One of the goals of this phase is to test concepts and ideas. In fact, I specifically quoted economy as one of those things and it's actually been the #1 thing to test. But, we've made few adjustments since the test started.

Everyone new potion values were being adjusted at some point and probably for the lower, since they paid quite a lot. I can understand frustration at suddenly making less money, but to say potion making isn't worth it would be a stretch. Alchemy was never intended to be so great that you'd be insane to do anything else with your time, but as we all know, it reached that point. I think it's more balanced now.

Okay, so to address the specific questions / issues. The reason higher level potions do not pay more is because it would be overkill. Because potion rates will go down when sold without a Bureaucrat (and to be honest, there is a chance I'll adjust it so they go down even if a 'crat does sell them, but less quickly)... because the values of potions go down as they are sold, and take time to recover, you are naturally being encouraged to both sell things fewer other people can make (i.e. high potions) and to make a mixture of different potions instead of 50 tincture of vigors or something.

One of the goals of these changes was, surprisingly, not related to reducing money making potential. That goal was to make the idea of players buying potions from other players viable and affordable. I think in an ideal world, you'd be able to get $2205 for a potion from a shop, and $3000 or more from a player. Have we made that fully viable? I doubt it, it's a hard balancing act and it needs work. Have we come closer? No doubt.

I am not against increasing potion values, adjusting how they are valued, etc., so long as it meets the goals of a fair balance and encouraging players to use each other's services. I will be watching this whole affair carefully, and making any changes necessary toward those two goals.

Finally, as for mining. I don't think it's really more work. Firstly, rooms don't mine out. Secondly, you don't need to combine metals or anything, you just dump all the metals of the same type in the crucible and they combine for you. And non metals only have one step of preparation and you can add them to a flask until you hit 50 units without having to combine them all first. It's been made easier to mine for specific items, and the RT has been reduced. I can see where one person may prefer foraging over mining, and vice versa, but I don't think there's a notable difference in work.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:14 am    Post subject:
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As a followup, I have tweaked how potion values are affected when sold. They now use a different formula than other commods. If sold like crazy, they also cap at a minimum $12 per unit (which of course is miserable money for a potion).

Also, Bureaucrats will lower potion values too when they sell them, but at less than half the rate of non 'crats.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:17 pm    Post subject:
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Okay. I added a small increase to the cap of potion / poison values based on the level of potion / poison. It's now $35 + $0.50 per level above 1, so the 35th potion (the final one) has a max of $52 per unit, for example.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:24 pm    Post subject:
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Correction, I raised the cap some for poisons because their skill reqs are not proportionate.
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Josie
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:47 pm    Post subject:
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I understand that ya'll need to fix the economic rates for potions, but it just seems so drastic to me is all. I know most people use potions to make money, and you don't want people to ONLY make potions so you need to downtweak their value. I am one of the best mixers in the game with Lyne being slightly better i believe, and my 63 dose potion pays me less now than the easiest potion to make ever paid me. I don't soley survive off of potion making anymore (yes i did make over a million bucks on potions so I do know where your coming from) but for say, a mage alchemy and potions is suppose to be one of their main ways of life and now I truly dont see that as so. I can make more hunting or even...fishing (which by the way i am obsessed with...thank you), in the time it would take me to forage all the materials for 1 potion.


The issue that I had is this... most people don't make potions to keep, they make them to resell. So if they just use potions as a way to make money, why should you waste the skill points in alchemy/research to learn say the inviso potion when you will make the same amount of cash on the very first potion.

Making it to where all potions sell for the same amount doesnt encourage me to learn higher potions at all, since I am one of those who when i do make potions just resells them. It makes me want to just not learn any more alchemy or research more tomes since I can make the same amount of money regardless what potion i know, and start making a combat mage out of myself. I know ya'll dont want people to be stuck doing one thing in order to gain exp or cash which is fine by me cuz i get to damn bored doing the same thing all day long, but if you are going to decrease one of the main sources of a mage's profession maybe you need to add a triple combat to their skills.

I don't want to sound like I coming off as a b* or whining which somehow I feel I am, but I'm not, honest! I would prefer to be able to do more things than just make potions, but with how much time it takes to forage/mine/crush/smelt/cook/mix etc... i felt that the prices were somewhat reasonable on the potions since it took me almost (approximating here) 30 min to an hour to make 1 potion (more if i was mining) where as now I can kill a guard with 1 cast of LB search him find a box and get 900 bucks in it, all in 2 minutes.

anyway i think im totally losing my train of thought so gonna end now *grin*

Josie




[quote="HR-Trevor"]because the values of potions go down as they are sold, and take time to recover, you are naturally being encouraged to both sell things fewer other people can make (i.e. high potions)
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Josie
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:51 pm    Post subject:
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and ya changed the potion price while i was typin my last post *grins* so xnay that part
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Your swing knocked Trevor Rage down!
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:29 pm    Post subject:
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Thanks, Josie. You didn't come across badly.

I think what we must realize, is that alchemy has never been intended to be a massive money maker in and of itself. It is intended to as a skill by which you can either make money selling valuable items to other players, or supplement other endeavors by boosting stats, lowering roundtimes, etc.

By the way, and this comment is specific to you at your current skill level Josie, do you realize that if you used one full 63-dose Elixir of Quickness you could save over an hour of mining time because of the RT reduction? Imagine what you can do one higher RT skills or with higher potency versions of that potion. [That was based on a test I did with your exact skills / stats, where I was able to mine 15 times at 12 seconds each. Figuring 12 seconds is a reduction of 4.5 sec on avg from normal, 4.5 x 63 x 15 = 4252 seconds, or a bit over 70 minutes]

I think the beauty of alchemy is overlooked by many because of the work involved in making potions or cost to buy them from those who make them. But if you make such and such amount in combat now, or fishing, imagine what you could make if you had significantly lower RT, or higher stats so you had more bites and less line snaps.

By the way I do need to dispute a couple of things. I don't think fishing pays amazingly when you're not catching records and the records are somewhat well established and entrenched now. Also, your post gave the impression that because you *can* find $900 in 2 minutes, you average $900 every 2 minutes (or $270,000 an hour hunting) which is of course not the case. Hunting has more risk and should pay more than activities that don't, however.
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TheTrackerChick
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:59 pm    Post subject:
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I'm definitely one of those ones that takes full advantage of
being able to mix quite decently for a tracker and use those
potions to my advantage raising stats. I was chomping at
the bit to make the Elixir of Quickness and just learned it
recently.

Question: Does Elixir of Quickness work for everything
reducing RT? Like mixing, foraging, fishing?

~Ina
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:02 pm    Post subject:
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Yep, every RT. Well there are a small amount it doesn't work for, so 99% of everything.
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Kelasa



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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:31 pm    Post subject:
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Okay I can't say I agree with a few of the changes, though I can see where the effect of potions dropping even when bureaucrat sells them will help keep the more common potions lower cost then the higher.

The biggest thing I don't agree with is the reduction of how much the market drops when a non bureaucrat sells. When there was an obvious downfall to selling with a 10.03% loss, it made Bureaucrats more then just a convience. With the drop being reduced to 3.5% I feel that people having a bureaucrat sell for them will just think it's a convience to be able to sell everything at once, instead of a benefit not just to themselves but everyone.

Now for a couple of ideas:

Market and Mixtures: What about having potions that people sell become avaible in the alchemy shop, poison shops and pawnshops where they are sold? The places will run out of stock as someone buys up all the parts of certain potions or poisons, especially the higher up ones. By limiting the doses to what has been sold this will prevent the higher skill ones from being avaible until someone could actually mix them. Make the values on the potions be similiar to that on the commodities, an increase of 280% (2.8x market price per dose). By having each individiual shop with the supply that has been sold there, that makes more places someone would need to check to get that hard to mix item. The market could also reflect the prices of potions depending on how many are 'in stock.' instead of having the prices drop when a Bureaucrat sells them.

I don't know how feasible this idea would be to actually implement but was just a brainstorm I had when sitting asleep at work today.

Kelasa
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:50 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
With the drop being reduced to 3.5%


It is not 3.5% In fact, it is a flat amount plus a certain percentage.

Quote:
I feel that people having a bureaucrat sell for them will just think it's a convience to be able to sell everything at once, instead of a benefit not just to themselves but everyone.


They might feel this way but they would be mistaken, as you know. You are able to not only keep the market high, but also get them more money. I think your biggest enemy is the fact that people are selling commodities less in general nowadays since they pay less and they have more options than ever in making money. I may adjust the drop factor, I may adjust the commodity regeneration factor, regardless.

Quote:
Market and Mixtures: What about having potions that people sell become avaible in the alchemy shop, poison shops and pawnshops where they are sold? The places will run out of stock as someone buys up all the parts of certain potions or poisons, especially the higher up ones. By limiting the doses to what has been sold this will prevent the higher skill ones from being avaible until someone could actually mix them. Make the values on the potions be similiar to that on the commodities, an increase of 280% (2.8x market price per dose). By having each individiual shop with the supply that has been sold there, that makes more places someone would need to check to get that hard to mix item. The market could also reflect the prices of potions depending on how many are 'in stock.' instead of having the prices drop when a Bureaucrat sells them.


This seems to me like the only purpose it would serve is to cut out the Mage middleman, much as if we were to make a npc bureaucrat that would sell for you, even if we limited when they were around to do it or how much they'd do. I don't support it.
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Kelasa



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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:08 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
This seems to me like the only purpose it would serve is to cut out the Mage middleman, much as if we were to make a npc bureaucrat that would sell for you, even if we limited when they were around to do it or how much they'd do. I don't support it.


I think you might have missed part of the idea, the only potions that would be availible would be those sold by the players themselves. So if the mage or even medic middle man didn't want the hassle of selling potions to the other players, they could sell them to the shop and they would be availible for the other players to buy.

Kelasa
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:32 pm    Post subject:
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I didn't miss it.
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