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New potion prices
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Kelasa



Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 363

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:21 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Before, you had no bonus to potion selling. Everyone would effect the market in the same way (i.e. zero). Now, you have less of a detrimental effect on the economy than everyone else. This is what we call a bonus.


You are wrong there neifl. bureaucrats did have a bonus to selling potions. So we lost out on that portion as well.
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Kelasa



Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 363

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject:
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And mellie, you seem to conventiantly forget now that you have yoru own slave bureaucrat that i did reallocate away from bureaucrat for a time, and at the insistance of my friends, INCLUDING you went back to being a bureaucrat with my last reallocation. After which you and everyone else who begged me to go back just started to ignore me.
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:06 pm    Post subject:
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Allow me to take this post and cut it into a series of much more accurate pieces, if I may.

Quote:
I am one of the few if not the only one who has a bureaucrat as my main character


The Bureaucrat profession has been pimped out into a profession of convenience and used as a secondary character to be logged on when needed and logged off when not. Character development mainly takes place when there is a new ability like BROKER to be gained and then the character is played once in a while in addition to their selling duties. Are you an exception? Partly, because you spend more time on your crat than others do, but I think it would be unfair to place you as a bastion of dedication to the ever trouble profession.

Now that I have said that, I should explain further that I don't fault you, or anyone. Are Bureaucrats lacking? Yeah, they sure are. But not for the reasons you're pointing out directly. You see, let's pretend we implemented a full legal system, reduced building costs, etc. How many more skills and stats would you need? About none. Law, Research, Persuasion, Intimidation. I think that's about it? 4 skills. And for stats? Charisma, Charisma, Charisma, a dusting of Intellect and Mentality maybe, and some more Charisma. Now we have a Bureaucrat.

Is this because the profession is locked into being this way? No. With all those extra points (esp. skill pts) you could easily be training some spells, psi, ecology (which I imagine you do, along with alchemy), poisons, some instruments, some defenses and weapons and armor... and so on.

You have more freedom than most to train all these extra skills. So they're double max in many cases, so what? Most of your peers would kill for the extra skill points to be able to spend without hurting their profession. Just ask a Performer.

Now, there is a design flaw side to this too. See, we haven't given you good reasons to train strength, vitality, agility, coordination, or perception. And mentality training is only slightly more useful to you. We've given you a situation where you're free of any real reason to not just dump 32032039 points in charisma, and then brag about how cool you are because you have so much charisma.

It is for this incredible 1-dimensional aspect of this profession that I have brought up the topic (well before this subject came up on the boards, btw) of possibly ditching the Bureaucrat class for good in live. It really comes to this. Either we apply solutions to this one dimensional class, or we ditch it.

Quote:
so that is why I am upset about these changes.I do agree that the money system needed to be better balanced, which it does seem at this point.


I'd like to hear your suggestions on how this can be better achieved in a way that you prefer over what has been done.

Quote:
But I don't think that should be done at the expense of a bonus of a class.


As Neifl pointed out, your class gained a perk. Now, that belief hinges upon the idea you're looking out for your fellow players and wanting to help them, more than being concerned about your own pocketbook. Because it's true, now you're making less than 100% on your own sales, you lost something. But everyone else lost more, and you can help them recover that loss. Which concern is greater to you personally? Well that's not my place to judge or say.

Quote:
I would rather see the Bureaucrat profession removed from the game then see what few abilities we have be hindered.


If I remove the class, it's probably not coming back. However, I don't see us deciding on this pre-live. As Mellie pointed out, you could reallocate. Something damn near no game in history has made so easy, yet some people appreciate so little. And, you've reallocated Kelasa into another class before, so I don't see it as an option you're so unwilling to accept. Are you wanting the class ditched because you're out of reallocations? That would be really severe and man that's screwing everyone else at its finest. Are you trying to just get a point across by being dramatic? I don't know, I just can't figure out why you want an entire class ditched so badly when you could just change classes when your next reallocation is available.

Quote:
At this current time, even if a bureaucrat was trained balanced they would be unable to hunt on level.


This idea of on level is misleading. Ever critter has unique stats and this makes it so that a level 20 critter may be more like a level 18 or a level 22 or something critter to you. For instance, they all have skills rated on their level, but some have *really* low agility which makes them much easier to hit. Some have agility exceeding what you'd expect at their level too. And you know what Kelasa? My personal player character, when I get time to play... is, well let's say he's between level 10 and 20. He hunts chiths which are level 3. Could he hunt something better? Yeah he could. But he likes chiths. He makes a lot of money in them now, too.

Quote:
A bureaucrat has no profession based defense, and since creatures now triple train in weapons it makes them guarenteed to be hit, which would mean constantly running ot the hopsital or only being able to hunt with a medic.


I can't fault you for not knowing this, but I never put in the triple thing, I decided not to. They're doubled. But beyond this, again we have this attitude that if I can't hunt a level 20 critter when I'm 20, I'm not going to make enough money or get enough exp to make it worth it. That's simply untrue. You could be making good money from critters that have a 0% chance to hit you, frankly. With all those extra skill points, I'd thought maybe you'd have tried it out, you know? But I have to admit, dumping all your stat points into charisma sure isn't going to help you hunt on level.

Quote:
All other professions can at least triple in one form of defense or have a spell or power that will enhance it. Armor, Evasion, parry, Shield,etc.


Most of mages and psionics do not use their powers full time and the powers they have are by no means able to make up for lacking triple defense/armor. They have more offense than you, but this defense argument doesn't hold water except in the "offense is the best defense" argument. Techs can triple light armor, but that's it. No defense, and lets face it, the armor isn't THAT much of a help.

Quote:
Half of the benefits that a bureaucrat has are not into the system and from what i understand don't play on being released into the system until the live version.


You knew this for how long? You had how many reallocations to choose a different class?

Quote:
For example: Reduced building-related costs. When the new hoep was built was there any roleplay about zoning contracts, building permits and such? We have a place on our organizers for number of permits sold, yet there are not permits currently.


Frankly a) I didn't think about giving a Bureaucrat any bonus here (admittedly the building bonus never struck me as affiliated with nautical stuff, but I guess it could apply sure), and b) I wanted to get the second boat out asap for the benefit of the players. Yeah, I admit it would have been nice to toss a Bureaucrat perk in there, aside from the mountains of extra money every has been able to make to donate.

Quote:
Several of the professional skills a bureaucrat can train in are not yet in the game or have no use in game, like Aviation, driving, or just don't make sense for a political type character, Athletics?


Again, when you have both limited system work and limited geography, skills like Aviation and Driving are hard to implement in a meaningful way. Matter of fact, we may cut these skills entirely from the skill list in "live" unless/until uses for them come up (this does not mean we're ditching vehicles, but many you don't need a large amount of skill to operate). This of course only further dilutes the Bureaucrat profession. Ahtletics is triple because we wanted to give you.. something else. A lot of political figures are actively into sports, whether it's a President who used to own his own baseball team, a city councilman who plays raquetball, or a senator that golfs once a week.

Quote:
I know that I may have well have signed the death warrent in the current version on the game for my choosen profession but I feel this strongly over the entire issue. So be it.


Are you really so pretentious that you think you make or break a profession? Do you think I'd really say, "Hey since Kelasa wants this, screw everyone else, let's do it."? Well the remainder of Bureaucrats can breathe a collective sigh, things don't work this way.
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:08 pm    Post subject:
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And mellie, you seem to conventiantly forget now that you have yoru own slave bureaucrat that i did reallocate away from bureaucrat for a time, and at the insistance of my friends, INCLUDING you went back to being a bureaucrat with my last reallocation. After which you and everyone else who begged me to go back just started to ignore me.


I just added a reallocation for you, which you may use only if you choose a new class. If you don't intend to use it, let me know so I can remove it. Eat your heart out.
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Downtweak



Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 389
Location: West of October

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:54 pm    Post subject:
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I just added a reallocation for you, which you may use only if you choose a new class. If you don't intend to use it, let me know so I can remove it. Eat your heart out.


Wait... My profession sucks too!

Quote:
You are wrong there neifl. bureaucrats did have a bonus to selling potions. So we lost out on that portion as well.


Please try to follow the argument. I'm assuming whatever percentage bonus you receive is still there, because you're not yet bitching wildly at everyone about how you lost your percentage bonus.

However, I don't believe you had any bonus in moderating the market value of potions. This follows directly from the fact that there were no market values to moderate. If I'm wrong in this capacity, please, let me know.
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SolitaryTurnip



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 1724
Location: Your mom (burn)

 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject:
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I dunno, I just think this is totally ridiculous. As I believe Trevor stated before, the point of alchemy and potions is NOT to sell them to the pawn shop or whatever. It's supposed to be to... make potions. Then you can use them yourself or sell them to other players. I don't want to sound like a dick... but Kelasa, you do sound VERY petty in this matter, and I think Trevor is being more than reasonable.

Oh, and I appreciate the reallocations, Trevor! Just wanted to let you know that you're appreciated *grins*.
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Aarian



Joined: 23 Nov 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Michigan

 Post Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:26 am    Post subject:
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Just a thought here as we all want to our professions to be of importance and maybe this has all been considered before, but has the idea of Crats being able to set up their own shops ever been considered? they would have the advantage in that they could buy and sell in bulk. The Mages and Medics could make the potions, sell them to the Crats in bulk and then the Crats could sell the potions to the public who could buy them in bulk from the Crat at a markup of course.

The same would go for weapons and armor and whatever else down the road. In other words each profession would have it's own unique ability to produce items but only the Crats could sell them effectively to the public enmasse? I hope you are seeing where I am going with my thoughts as they aren't very coherent at the moment with very little sleep. I know it's a big undertaking in making sure that all professions have a fairly equal importance within a world.

Lumbers off to bed to catch a few more hours of sleep and maybe a muse will inspire him to come up with a solid plan along this line
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:38 am    Post subject:
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What we've been thinking is more along the lines anyone could have a shop, but they'd need to get permits or other necessary things through a Bureaucrat to do so.
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Lynettia



Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 45
Location: If I was where I wanted to be I wouldnt' be here

 Post Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:21 pm    Post subject: Potion prices
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I have no complaints on the prices of potions to let you know before I tell you my thoughts. I was just wondering if one thing had been taken into consideration. Say a level one mage and a level 20 both make a tincture of health potion. level one mage makes a full potion and level 20 makes a not quite full potion. Even though the level 20 mage's potion will be stronger and better they would still get the same price *about* as the level 1 mage would because it's sold by doses not strength. Like I said the prices have been adjusted well and I dont mind the prices going down when they're sold simply because too many people were getting way too rich off them. Just something I wanted to make you aware of if you weren't already. No I dont know of an easy solution. and I really don't care if it gets changed or not. Just looking for more work for you to do I guess. You know I'm good at that
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:09 pm    Post subject:
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Yeah, this is something I'm aware of and have considered before. But, the more factors we toss into values of things, the easier it is to either make pauper money, or riches beyond belief. Wink

It's something I'm leaving for "live" and may improve on there.
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Lynettia



Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 45
Location: If I was where I wanted to be I wouldnt' be here

 Post Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:46 pm    Post subject:
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A note to all the aspiring alchemists out there who complain they can't make money with alchemy. Let me explain what I do and maybe it'll help cut down on the complaints about potion prices. It's simply really. You hunt. Boxes hold plenty of ingots and other potion ingredients. Hunt and hunt and hunt until you fill your backpack up with the ingredients. Well either that or until you get stunned/killed by the critters because of the burden. Then take a day off and forage the stuff to go with the metals you found. Then make potions! This way you get to hunt, forage, refine, make potions, and make money. See! Alchemy is your friend people. And as a side note I Always comm to find out if anyone wants to buy my potions before I broker them. And for people who don't like to forage find a bureaucrat who doesn't want/like to hunt and get them to forage your ingredients for you. Split the profit with them. Money's not all that important people! You can't take it with you. The important thing is to experience the fun here. The counselors work hard to make this a good place for us to spend time and all people seem to want to do is complain they can't make money fast enough.
And as far as what I said before about the potions. I'm satisfied since you said you'd thought about it as well, because like I said I'm not sure if there is a viable solution. And it's not all that important since I can still make 100K in a week. And who can say that in real life? not me that's for sure

Good work! to all the counselors!
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Deblaeju



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 112

 Post Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:43 am    Post subject:
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jaddan's think alike it seems ::wink lyne:: thats the way i've played it myself, i just keep hunting till get too many minerals an other herbs, usually ends up i'll finish level making the potions for those that i've found while hunting.
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